Elizabeth Marks: Navigating a Financial Crisis, Freelancing, Career Advice - Edvo

Elizabeth Marks: Navigating a Financial Crisis, Freelancing, Career Advice

In this episode of the Edvolution Podcast with host, Shireen Jaffer, Liz tells us about how she navigated her career after graduating into the financial crisis of 2008.  Despite doing everything she was told to do--excelling in school, going to NYU, and even getting a job at the Times in NYC--Liz learns early-on that she must create her own path in order to live the lifestyle she wants.  And she does just that.

About Elizabeth Marks (Liz):
Liz leads content and messaging strategy at inside.company, alongside their team of researchers, writers, and content partners.  Prior to inside, Liz worked in Silicon Valley on Apple and Facebook’s in-house marketing teams.  Her journalistic and literary background lend a pragmatic and disciplined approach to communications and classic storytelling.

Transcript

Shireen Jaffer:   0:00
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Evolution podcast, where we question what makes our life truly ours. I'm Shireen Jaffer, and I'm very excited to introduce you to some incredible people with fascinating stories to kick us off. I've got Liz here with me, who I recently met. Liz in our first conversation, I feel like we just hit it off. We've lived these weird parallel lives. And it is so good to have you. And I'm excited to share your story with everybody. 

Elizabeth Marks:   0:30
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, Likewise,  we hit it off right off the bat. And I've been looking forward to this conversation since our last competition. So let's do it.

Shireen Jaffer:   0:44
Let's do it. So this everything that's going on right now with, you know, Covid-19 on and obviously the financial crisis that world going through. This isn't the first time in your career you've dealt with something like this. Uh, and from our last conversation, it seems like the last financial crisis really served as a big pivoting point in your life and how you chose to build your career. So I'm super excited to start there and learn about your story.

Elizabeth Marks:   1:15
Awesome. Yeah. This, um it is not my first rodeo with the the crash of the financial market. So I feel a little bit more prepared this time around, but lets you zoom back to 2000 and eight. Um, I was at New York University. I was finishing up my last year at school. Um, I at that time I had my dream job of working at Time magazine. I was so excited when I landed that internship. Um, I went to school for writing. I'm a writer by trade. And I was like, You know what? This is what I want to dio. Once I landed that gig, I was so excited. And, you know, I started that gig in the fall of 2008 and it was at the time life building. So it was right in the middle of where everything was happening. You know, I was I was like, I'm on my way and up to this point, sharing like I had done quote unquote everything right. I had gone to school every day, got good grades, you know, got into a good college, did everything by the book and the expect ICS expectancy from I guess everything that everyone has told me until that until Ben was You know, after you go to college, you'll get a job and my house and you don't go on the very traditional past that we are all very familiar with, at least in America. So

Shireen Jaffer:   2:53
just so bizarre because I feel like even now people are still told that that as long as you get good grades and goto, we're going to get a job and the data is overwhelmingly, you know, telling us that is just not true. It was even less true. Well, it is less true now more than ever. But even background, When you just graduated, it was still very much the case by that was false advice?

Elizabeth Marks:   3:21
Absolutely, absolutely. And I didn't really realize it until I graduated. And one, you know, I just I felt like the whole rug was just swept out from underneath me. I was like, Wait at Starbucks is on hiring freeze right now like Starbucks. Like my high school job that I had, I was making more money as a professional modern dancer when I was 16 then when I had my degree from New York University at the time of graduation, and it was very riel in going, you know, to Time magazine and walking past Lehman Brothers and seeing people with boxes coming out of, you know, grown men and women with boxes of their stuff outside of these big bank financial buildings. I was like, Oh, my God, this is really this is like, this is happening and I don't know it. I felt gypped, you know, I felt jib wrong with, Like, I think a lot of a lot of my friends from high school, a lot of my friends that I met in college. It was like there was nothing left. Nothing happened in a matter of months, right? But the crash was in September, October. I graduated in December on there was nothing to graduate to.

Shireen Jaffer:   4:46
A lot of people are feeling that way right now. I obviously the students are graduating college. Ah, grad school reentering the workforce like so many people. About 2020. It's going to be bad year, right?

Elizabeth Marks:   5:02
Yeah, and e, I understand. I felt it. I've been there and very I mean granted at the time Obviously I don't have a mortgage. I didn't have a family to take care of. I my life circumstances were different. However, the mindset of expecting. Hey, I'm going to get a job. I'm gonna succeed. I'm gonna make money. That expectation was absolutely there, and it was absolutely shattered. So I had to change. I had to adapt like everybody else. You have to adapt. But I didn't really know how. And the other part of this there's another part of this was that as much as I wanted a drunk of working out Time magazine, Um, I got there and I hated it. So there's that part two. So not only did I hate my dream job, the dream that I thought I was going to live no longer existed. So

Shireen Jaffer:   6:12
and that's wild battle a lot too. Do you accept? Because so many and again so many people right now are facing back because, you know, for so longer entire life you do everything you're told to get bring job that you've envisioned and to get to this point where you know, it's that milestone you've graduated, you can be now this official adult that you make with what you want it. And all of a sudden, just like you said, it's you realize, Oh, shoot. I'm definitely not in that place. And

Elizabeth Marks:   6:52
what is not happening? It was not an option like that. I was completely gone.

Shireen Jaffer:   6:59
Exactly, even though you did everything you were told to do. So tell me to tell me what? How you handle about tell me about the things you did. A backward.

Elizabeth Marks:   7:08
Sure. So at that point, um, I moved home because I had I couldn't live in New York City without a job, nor did I even really want to be in New York City, Um, doing whatever I could to make some money. But it was definitely not what I envisioned myself doing for the rest of my life. Um, there was a girl that I was great friends with in college. She was pursuing a degree in painting, I believe, or something in that realm. And she, you know, she obviously had the same experiences me and she went home, um, to live with her family as well and was kind of floundering around as well. And she, you know, we were talking a lot and she she was. So you land on this gig at a place called Ogilvy, which is, you know, a big advertising agency in the advertising industry. And she was like, You know what? I'm making this Making these ads. It's not painting. It's not our but it's not terrible. It's not horrible. Ah, you know, I'm making 202 100 bucks a day, and to me, I was like, Oh, my God, that's so much money a time cause I'm running out of making 10 bucks an hour. So I was like, Huh, That's interesting. And she's like, Yes, so the there's these things called copywriters that art directors work with and we worked together and she was like, You know what? You're good with words. Your writer like your creatives like maybe you should give it a try and I was like, Huh? All right, let me look into it. And the more I looked into it, the more I was like, this sounds interesting and at least a little bit more fun than what I'm doing, so that you

Shireen Jaffer:   9:04
know, that's one of the biggest things I talk to people about. Now, as they're in their career surges so much exists out there that isn't even in your universe right now. You just want aware of it. You know, back then you didn't know what copy writing was. You haven't been introduced to it even though I have the exact skills ever fired. And so the best way to find out what exists that you can possibly in line with us just by talking to people and by seeing what they're up to and what they're genuinely enjoying. And yeah, uh, just learning more about even if it's not their work, but work that they're around. In this case of your friend, she was around copywriters. And the need for that it's such that's probably the best way to learn about what you can do it.

Elizabeth Marks:   9:54
Absolutely, Absolutely. I didn't even know it was the thing I know Copyrighting existed. I didn't know it was a job. I gonna I had no idea. And it was basically look that my close friends stumbled into this advertising job that she didn t even exactly know. You know what? It waas when we were kind of figuring out together. But she was like trying and said, OK, let's try it So, um, basically what happened was from there I was like I asked her, How do I How do I break in? What do I do? And she said, Go to Miami, out school, goto a nod school, Um, get your portfolio together cause you need a portfolio and then started applying for jobs. And I was just ready to go, like, Count me in. So I went to Miami at school, up in San Francisco. I went for 2/4 because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to get a job, so I got my portfolio together. I hustled and I got an internship at Crispin Porter, gusty in Miami. And at the time Chris Import of Augusta in Miami was really hot shot. They were doing some really cool stuff from the industry. I knew I could learn a lot there. And yes, it's an internship again. Wasn't expecting to be an intern outside of college, but seven bucks an hour. What's the difference between Southern Bucks? An hour and 10 bucks an hour when you're trying to do something different, right?

Shireen Jaffer:   11:35
Very well. And you went to school for 2/4 because for you. It was I need to get a job. I know this is the amount of time I need to spend in the school to build up my portfolio and get access to these interim chefs. But I don't necessarily need to complete the degree program because that's not the intention for you. The intention waas do enough to be able to have that portfolio experience to get that job.

Elizabeth Marks:   12:00
That's, Ah, 100% correct. And I did that also because I had a writing degree. I knew how to write the foundation was there, Um, I had a purpose, and once I fulfilled that purpose, I didn't need to hang out and continue the program. I mean, I know what I have to

Shireen Jaffer:   12:22
right, And I think that's so beautiful and so important and honestly, kudos to you, because I also think it's one of the big steps towards self defining your success right and really taking control of your career. I think a lot of people are told that if you get a degree, you will get X, y and Z right and that I think we'll to be more competitive, but I think it really helps to think about your true intention and logically work backwards. A swell is just also with your gut instinct, but work backwards and realize. Does this activity help you get to your intention? And if you logically analyze, um, or you could just talk to people who have gone to grad school or other even undergrad programs. You'll realize a lot of what they learned didn't actually get them. That job didn't help them fulfill bad intention, right? So why do the same thing that hasn't worked for so many people? Why do the same thing just because you keep getting told to do it?

Elizabeth Marks:   13:25
Absolutely. And I was in the exact same boat. I had a bachelors degree from a quote unquote great school. It didn't matter. I mean, I'm not. And I'm not saying that my college education was a waste, because we can go into that at another time. It's a another story for another time, because I don't think it waas, however this kind of drone issue go to college. If you do this, then you'll get that kind of formula was no longer the case. It was no longer relevant, and it was no longer possible Um and also, it's money, right? By school is an institution. They need to make money. Um, the money I saved when I was living at home, I spent towards school and I only had so much money I was making nothing. So I only I only saved so much. So that's also was a good indicator. Uh, you light a fire under my ass, get it

Shireen Jaffer:   14:32
right and they're gonna yourself, which is also important because I do think the other extreme here that you know I don't want people to take away is well, if you're broke or if you don't have a job, don't pay for things right, don't pay for that degree program or whatever is that. That's not It's not black and white like that. It's literally asked in the things that allow you to meet your intentions. And I see a lot of people right now that our job surging, they're spending so much time and effort doing it themselves and not, um, asking for help or even possibly you know, I don't know, taking and unlike or something like that, right? Not being and being able to do it better, and ah, in a more meaningful way because time is also money. Uh, even here, when vast dollars or you can choose to investor time. Uh, you have to yourself decide what is possible for you and what is the best option for you? No one can really tell you that.

Elizabeth Marks:   15:35
That's that's absolutely right. And and the truth of the matter is E. I mean, there's other ways to get into the advertising industry. But the the the one surefire thing you do need is a portfolio, and I didn't have one, so I needed to get one. And in order to get one, I needed to pay some money, so it was absolutely worth it. But at the same time, what you're saying the time aspect as well. Like, I was willing Teoh taken internship over a job because of the pedigree of be internship. All right? It was, you know, it was I was looking long term about this, so it was worth it to me. And

Shireen Jaffer:   16:22
you want No, I look so you have your portfolio, You have your internship.

Elizabeth Marks:   16:27
I have my internship. I only was expecting Teoh live in Miami for three months for a so long as the internship went, and then I was hoping to get a job after that. But I actually didn't know my my goals. I shouldn't. A long term plan kind of went short. Doormats like, You know what? I'm gonna do this internship and we'll see what happens after that. Um, Monthly, it worked out after the internship. I actually was hired freelance at Crispin for another year. And that was awesome. I loved it. I ended up actually meeting my now husband and a coworker. Their way there now the co founders of Inside Company, but, um, needles to say I stayed there a lot longer than three months. Um, from there I got offered a job at TV debut, a media arts lab in Los Angeles working on Apple. And that's an opportunity as a writer and emerging copywriter that I was not going to pass up. So I moved to L. A for about two years, worked on Apple, got a lot of wonderful work out of working there, met a lot of brilliant people that I still in connected with and cross paths with from time to time. Um, and I started really enjoying what I was doing. I saw the money start coming in. It was a really exciting time. In my life, I felt like things were paying off. I mean, granted to say I was living in L. A on a junior copywriter salary. And I think in the first year, I don't think I made a dollar after the year without, but I was happy, and I felt like I was doing something productive. I felt like an adult. I had an apartment. I you know, I was checking off the boxes, and that felt really good.

Shireen Jaffer:   18:31
But that was also your last full time job, right?

Elizabeth Marks:   18:34
Well, it waas Yeah, there's that. So, yes, that now and get into part two of the story. So? So after Media Arts Club, as as a writer and a copywriter leader Arts. I've only worked on Apple, and that was I'm not complaining. It was It was an amazing time. Amazing experience. But I didn't want to get cornered ready? I didn't want to get trapped just producing apple work. Um, I wanted something different, but at the same time, I didn't know where to go, because I didn't. I wasn't exactly thrilled about the prospect of going to a different ad agency. I didn't really want to work on Clorox or Mac and cheese or gas. I don't know, whatever. Whatever it is, I just didn't really interest me and I was making money. But I was still capped and I wasn't making that much money again. I don't think I made a dollar after, You know the year was up. I don't think I don't I don't think I came out ahead at all. So at that time I was re evaluating. I was like So so what's next for me? What do I dio? Um, let's let's see what happened. So I put some feelers out there for full time gigs, and I actually did get offered a full time gig at an ad agency in a way, and it was really fluttering. It was at the time, it was almost double the salary. I was getting, um, at Media Arts Lab and it wasn't necessarily like the sexiest ad agency, but it was a lot of money and it was nice to feel wanted. However, on the other hand, I didn't want Teoh keep my upward trajectory. I didn't wanna work on cars I didn't want to work on. I just wasn't inspired by it. And I knew I still had some Still had the fire in, you know, I was like, I still want to keep growing again. My husband, my now has been at the time, my my boyfriend. He was he still lived in Miami. And he told me he was like, You know what? Why don't you try freelance? And that was, like, another, like, mind blowing moment for me of Leo. What? What is that? What do you mean? Like, I don't I don't understand what that is. And it was like, just try it. And he said, If you don't make what you would have made at that other agency if he didn't break six figures freelancing, you can always go back.

Shireen Jaffer:   21:46
And this is this Boom it I didn't mean to interrupt. You know, you're this moment. And, of course, to my listeners, I mean the first time, um, listen, I met, you know, we we really bonded over this story, So I do know her story. Usually, I don't know every podcast guest that I have to worry report it, but this party, Do you know? Because, uh, this is where we kind of have this, like, parallel life moment Where, um when in my entrepreneurship journey, Because a lot of people ask me, how did you know you wanted to start your own company? How did you know? You want bet on yourself. And I have the same moment where my now husband, then boyfriend he had already dropped out of college. He had already been, you know, well into his entrepreneurship dirty. I had just started my first company, which was supposed to only be a summer project while I was in school, into this, like, beautiful, full time thing. And, you know, come graduation time, I was told, Well, the only way to have stability, right? The sense of stability and the only way to have a successful careers to work your way up and to join a company established and have this full time job and go from there on. And I just it wasn't by being with me, and at the time I couldn't explain why it wasn't aligning with me. I know you're You're kind of going through That was that reflection as well? If you know there is a lot of money with this new, full time offer, but I'm not feeling inspired by it. And it's still open. Meet all my lifestyle requirements I have here. Oh, I was kind of having the same thing. In hindsight, I realized, Oh, I just didn't wanna have to rely on a company for my livelihood. I didn't want

Elizabeth Marks:   23:35
to add a little and

Shireen Jaffer:   23:36
people for being able to pay me or not. Right? Uh, so that was I got Only in hindsight, can I actually verbalized five at the time? I didn't know, and my boyfriend at the time said, Look, sharing. Why don't why don't you just give yourself one year, go full time with your with your you know, with your company. You're already is actually doing it. I was working ridiculous hours with school. Um, and he was like, you know, just try for a year, and if you make the same amount of money I found more. But like if you at least make the same amount of money that you would have what they you know, your next salary from this job offer you have on the table. Then you know that you can You can sustain yourself your company on if you like it, obviously. And if you don't make enough money, if you don't break that in the first year, then you could always go back. You get playing ways I'm going to hire. You gonna have built those connections and all that stuff, which I know lives You had. It has as well.

Elizabeth Marks:   24:38
No, absolutely. I mean, it was It's the same exact story. And at the time, Um, not Matt. My now husband was living in Miami and I would have had to stay out in a way, and, uh, it wasn't matching up. He was, like, moved back to Miami and C L A goes, Yeah, And to me, like leaving that job after on the table was very hard. It was not an easy decision because, you know, graduating in 2000. I was like, You know what? I'm not gonna make $30,000. By the time I reached H 30 I really didn't think it was possible. And then I get dangle this carrot and a night. God, I'm just so happy I have a job that I kind of like whether one like, really like. And am I going to give that up? I know how precious that is and how much I wanted that, right? Right at the same time. Yeah, I was 23. I didn't want to settle. I didn't wanna I just didn't I didn't My gut said no. My gut said no. My husband said, Give it a try my boyfriend at the time husband. Now give it a try. So I said, OK, on. And ever since, you know, I have been consulting and freelance and ever since I've never looked back, never back. I mean, even three years ago, my husband and I started in some company. We started our own creative strategy consultancy. That has been a dream. We work out of our house in Miami, are co workers, are all spread out over the country and even the world, and it's been liberating to suddenly it's been it was the best thing I could have done.

Shireen Jaffer:   26:39
I love to hear that, you know, it's I'm sure I want to know. You know, back then, when you made that move, obviously your boyfriend now husband was supportive. But what about other other people in your life.

Elizabeth Marks:   26:55
Okay, so that's a good It's a good question. Um, I don't think so. I grew up in a very nontraditional way. I just not very nontraditional, but I grew up in a very unstructured environment. My parents were extremely hands off with my brother and I They didn't have to be hands on my brother. And I always got our work done. We never got into trouble. We got into good schools again. We did everything by the book. So that was the the unstructured nobody breathing down my neck environment. I did very well in growing up. Additionally, I grew up in a dance studio. I never grew up in an office where you wear pants like pantsuits and go into go into a high rise that felt so foreign to me. Um, it just it didn't feel right. I guess you could say I guess that was part of the reason why time just didn't feel right for me as well. But yeah, I grew up in this very unstructured place structure. Never. Just my work doesn't happen from 9 to 5. It never has liked by 9 a.m. My works halfway done

Shireen Jaffer:   28:23
Yeah. So what? Do you know your parents or your brother or your friends about this decision? Teoh.

Elizabeth Marks:   28:33
So I've always eso I've always been like, fiercely independent in that way in the way that I work My parents My mom is a teacher. My dad owns nightclubs. Um, they were never in an office environment. So when I told them I was going freelance, my dad said, You know, the prevalence. It's great for a kid your age, you know, you do it and and that's vitally important toe have the support of your friends and your and your family and the people that are significant in your life. I think out that mental stability, um forget, you know, financial stability. But without the mental safety net that Hey, I have some people behind me kind of pushing me and giving me the green light. I think it would have been tremendously more difficult to make that decision to go freelance.

Shireen Jaffer:   29:34
Yeah, I'll tell you my fight, because I had the opposite experience, and I think most people probably phase less support than more support. Unfortunately, I

Elizabeth Marks:   29:45
think that's true.

Shireen Jaffer:   29:47
And so for me, you know, again on the entrepreneurship loans. When I told my parents who my mom's a nurse, my dots essentially works like very much. A 95 drop its entire life, my problems. A doctor. I mean, this is like a very structured family. And Marvin, I come from with very traditional values. And even though my car childhood, they've been incredibly supportive and they always knowed I was different ever since. Old kid, I was told lashing your very different from your partner from your friends. And I loved that I owned that, um but when I did tell them it was this moment of they knew it was coming. But their fear of way you're you're 21 years old. You're graduating USC. You have all this student loan debt. Um, no one in our family has ever started a business that my my parents also had so many experiences with their family members that did have businesses that didn't do so well. That business was not even a positive thing in my family since I was a kid, it was not anything introduced to me in a positive light. Eso so when I told them that they didn't get it, but they support A. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't like this only by any means. But they definitely said, you know. Well, why don't you go get the job and make the money and save enough money and then start your company? And I knew I just knew there's a way. At the time, I did not have full confidence that I would go back to entrepreneurship, and I probably would have You know what I know about myself now, but at the time, I didn't have that conviction. And my friends, most of my friends at the time had no idea, like they were super supportive because they're nice. But, you know, they haven't gone through that Germany, so they couldn't necessarily support in any other way outside of yeah. I mean, try it and don't go crazy, you know?

Elizabeth Marks:   31:49
Totally. Totally. I think that's I think that's more common especially I mean, even even 10 years ago, it was the word. Entrepreneurship wasn't as part of the vernacular as it is now, right? So I mean, I didn't know. I wouldn't have dreamed that I would have gone freelance and started my own company 10 years ago. Yeah, I hope you're saying that it wasn't even that thing that was not even on my radar?

Shireen Jaffer:   32:21
Yeah, I mean, that's That's really what I feel like just having conviction and, um, ability to just straight from the norm on it will allow you to just discover things that you never even considered because you're intentionally straying from your norm. And so, of course, you're going to encounter a completely different timeline of events because you weren't even concerned them in the first place on that stuff, and it was true for the both of us. But let's talk a little bit about freelancing, wrote back. Yeah, I think I've talked to people about freelancing a lot, especially right now with layoffs. And the common misconception is freelance saying is limited limited to It's kind of like the side hustle. And I'm doing air quotes that you can't see. But I'm I'm you know, people think freelance, saying it's just side hustles there temporary. They're limited to certain types of work that it's not really relevant as a career path. So So tell me what you

Elizabeth Marks:   33:33
think. I mean, I'm free went to do your own thing all the way. Um, career path is interesting again. That whole notion of having a path was completely shattered for me. As I believe it feels shattered for so many others right now mining the way. I'm sorry, this Let me go right past that. To me, there actually is much more quote unquote stability in freelancing. Then there is with a full time job or fel like I feel like having a lot of plates spinning gives you a lot more stability than putting all your eggs in one basket for me. Um, sorry. What's your what's your question?

Shireen Jaffer:   34:36
I think you were going to answer it. Tell me more about why you feel that way. What do you mean by having more place?

Elizabeth Marks:   34:41
So if you are working with multiple clients and one of those clients for what, For one reason or another, Ah, no longer is working with you or can work with you or discontinues working with you. You still have three other revenue streams coming in with a full time job. You've only got one, and that's a lot of trust to put into a corporation that's not yours, that there are a lot of things that you don't have control over that are much better. Well beyond your control. You can control how hard your work You can control your little corner of the organization. But if the organization, for example goes under are a global pandemic, for example, what do you dio? You have nothing else to lean on?

Shireen Jaffer:   35:41
Yeah, we're actually creating because of all the conversations I've been having. Now, with this pandemic, we're actually creating a guide. By the time this episode is live, it'll it'll be live as well. But it's around how you can, you know, build your career with multiple sources of income. And I think free lands is just simply one word to describe what this means. I I always like to introduce it, or if they see it as a mindset that is, you know, I've got skills to offer. I have people that want to buy those skills or buy it so they can use those skills. Leverage. Um, And so even if I am a full time freelancer, I was talking to another guest, Trish on the podcast who's been in entertainment, and she's freelanced for a lot of her career. But she was like a full time freelancer for CNN for I think two or so years we have, you know, bad is essentially a full time job. She didn't have additional source of grabbing at the time, but because she was a freelancer, her mindset always was. Every job is temporary and by how I have my list of clients, I'm nurturing that I'm volunteering. Still, my free time quote unquote free time. But any time that I'm not under one contract, I'm nurturing another opportunity. So you're you don't have this mind so that a lot of people have now with the way employer employee relationships are are set up in our society is you know, I work for this company, and my job is to be indispensable for this company s a lot of how I build my career a logically you're making yourself indispensable for one Kump money. Yeah, well, you know, there's so much out of your control, no matter how good you are, no matter what you do For that company, there is still a high likelihood. Not a small one. A pretty soon, the likelihood that they will let you go or you will choose to part ways for whatever reasons. Focus on being indispensable for yourself, for your network, for your your career ecosystem, whatever that is that can go so much farther. And I feel like that's really lives, what you've been able to build and how your higher essentially, you know, navigating the hurt prices.

Elizabeth Marks:   38:17
Absolutely. And that's something that you said was so poignant is the mindset that every job is temporary is very powerful. I know that in the past, temp jobs have gotten a bad rap. The idea of temp jobs. I have never in my life associated my self worth with my job. And I think that has helped me whether a lot of storms, including our current hurricane, if you will, um, I think it's great toe work hard. I think it's great to be passionate about what you dio. I would caution against placing your self worth in your job, especially if it's working for someone else.

Shireen Jaffer:   39:21
Yeah, I I think that's important. I think it just comes down. Teoh. There's not one way of doing things and this, you know, there is no coincidence. If you look into why freelancers and independent contractors and all these other you know, quote unquote like 10 were is looked down upon, like, you know, look at who's saying that and look at like what institutions propagate the need for having, you know, employer employee relationships and where that comes from and what that's motivated by. Think about something as simple as you know, we we have on the political less. You know, we're talking about people being paid or sorry, people getting more benefits and people like company offer in better health benefits and better that came for those benefits. And I've talked about this with another guest on my podcast, but it always comes up because you're essentially allowing this one institution to be, um, to be like to have control over your health, right and again separate conversation of our health industry and how great in the first place. But I would rather we talk about people getting paid more money, and I would rather have people you know, being able to build their careers and more flexible ways so that it's part of their holistic identity. And not just the only part,

Elizabeth Marks:   40:51
absolutely. And I think what's happening now because our health care system is so messed up that people are staying in jobs just to keep the health benefits exactly families. And that's it's a terrible way to live that, zeh. So you don't want workers to feel trapped just because you have them by the balls because you pay their health insurance. That's a terrible way to exist.

Shireen Jaffer:   41:18
Yes, we were. You had something really profound there because we were doing I can't remember. I can't remember the source. However, I will just tell you where it came from and then, you know, we can back check it. Um, we There was a survey done of people as to why they choose to stay with their employer or why they choose to stay in a full time job instead of starting their own business or starting their consultancy or whatever it is. And the number one thing was benefits literally. The number one paying by People stay in their jobs. This visit benefits. And then there was, um, there was a career growth on, and then it waas number one was benefits. Second was career wrote third Waas, I think retirement. They did separately that benefits. And I think the third thing was actually retirement like 41 k matching and things like that on. And it's crazy. If you probably think about how much time, autonomy and energy you give up in exchange for benefits that at most will probably cost you. Ah, grand a month, which is a lot. That's all law, but 12 grand a year versus countless amounts of disengagement, energy, frustration, the longer consequences, right? And about saying a full time career or being a pleasing, not roll. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying it's about digging deeper and being more intentional about why you're away doing and if it makes sense for you, Amazing, good. Like if anything, that will probably fuel you because you're you're going to have more conviction and why a path is your path Ancelotti. But that conviction is what helps you make it your own. And I think a lot of people today and I know this for a fact because I talked to thousands of people, probably every month, and one of the biggest things I asked them is, Why? Why are you in this career or why are you looking for this next job? You know first, they'll give me their answer, but When we dig deeper, it's really like, Well, I don't know what my options are. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do? It always comes down to that.

Elizabeth Marks:   43:45
What's fascinating? Yeah. I mean, I don't doubt it because that way air so conditioned. Still, that one thing leads to another, leased to another and knew The idea of the ideal of success in America is, you know, the CEO job, a company that everyone's heard off, not still looming, I think in people's minds. And it's ingrained in them on, even for me, growing up in in a fairly non traditional way, an unstructured way. I still was blinded by that ideal, and there is nothing wrong with that. Also, if that if that is your path and it works for you, Brad. And if you were people,

Shireen Jaffer:   44:38
totally and you know when it's working for you, you do know, you know it's That's just what it is like. You don't feel this level of missile line mentor dread. You know, like if you love your work and it allows you to build a lifestyle that you genuinely enjoy, you don't have to love 100% of your life now, you know. But if you generally feel the line feel fulfilled, your then cool. But you'll know when that's happening.

Elizabeth Marks:   45:06
Oh, yeah, you'll know when that's happening and you'll know for sure when it's not happening. Like I know for me, I just I was allergic to that corporate culture to the 9 to 5 to the pants. Since I was absolutely ill fitted for that world and that path, I won't live that every day would have been a terrible way for me personally to live. So I had to find another way hearing you

Shireen Jaffer:   45:38
say that is making me reflect on my own, kind of like what I thought my path would be. And I and of course, and I grew up in Palo Waldo Zuber affluent. My family was not affluent, but super academic, super, you know, achievement oriented. And I was. My school raised me to believe that growth and test scores and the company named you end up working for all of that is really important because we were in Silicon Valley and most of, like, graduated with. If I look at my London, most of them are at a tech company or ah they are. You know it a more structured path. And I remember in I was 18 and we were I think I was 17. Berg touring USC and it's a downtown. And I remember looking at my mom and say, Mom, by the time I graduated college, I will be in the L A. Downtown, you know, skyline and one of those buildings. And I'm gonna be wearing this cute little spurts suit work our heels. Nothing that I wear today. I'm gonna be wearing that and you'll see. And my mom, of course, was like, Yeah, great, amazing. You go girl company. Oh, do it. Blood. And then I turned 18. And guess what? I got an internship in it at a company, and I had great people to work with that have beautiful offices. That was in the Paul Hastings building in the skyline of downtown L. A. I did wear high heels. I did get to wear that pursuit. And even though I learned so much there, I very quickly realized Abso freaking lutely not. Do I want to do that every single day for my career? I don't wanna work my way up like this. I don't think I need to When it was not coming from a place of ego or not at all. Coming from that, it just didn't make sense to me why I would spend my entire career proving myself versus doing stuff that I really like doing and failing and experimenting it, experimenting and learning from capable people and just like letting things unfold right despite the realization. Still, graduation came and I have those job offers between working corpora in a very similar office environment or going full time with my with my last company. Still, if I I still needed that external influence my again my well to tell me Shareem, give yourself a year and he knew we met. When I was so young, he saw me in that corporate environment. He knew how much I hated it. He saw how much I felt limited and stifled. Uh, and it had nothing to do with the company. It was everything to just do with that way of working. And even though even though I knew all of those things about me, it was so hard going back to what you mentioned about how strongly were conditioned, it was so hard for me to just simply say I know that doesn't work for me. I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna try something different. It was so hard to do that.

Elizabeth Marks:   48:57
Sure, I get it. I was again. We live parallel lives, It sounds like, but I was there and it Well, it was unfathomable at the time, and that's what's scary. It's scary not knowing that that it didn't seem like an option. Yeah, right. It did not impossible or it didn't hold the same. It wasn't held to the same standard. It was somehow less quote unquote buster, choice of a career or E. I mean, there's a plethora of reasons why it's not the gold standard, I guess, but for me, and it sounds like for you as well. We had to find a different way we had so, like I couldn't survive in that kind of environment.

Shireen Jaffer:   49:49
It's and I think a lot of people feel that way, but either don't have that person that both of us, fortunately have that just believed in us and also, frankly, frankly, were were succeeding with that choice of life. So for me, it was hard not to believe it was hard for me to not see the success when someone I knew so close to me have been successful doing it. So I do think it's important to align yourself with people who have done it and who figured it out and get back to my intention with this podcast is I want to introduce people to you, to someone who's I had to make those hard decisions that didn't just come from a family where this was even though your family was on structured and gave you the room and environment. Still, it wasn't obvious that you would take this freelance Paolo. No, not at all. I want to introduce people like you know to each other because I know how important it is and you know how important it is, a zoo said. Having that person having

Elizabeth Marks:   50:54
big names, it's hot, it's extremely important and I can't confidently say that I would have done it without the support from my parents and my husband. I don't know if I I want to think that I would have still got in there eventually because of again my allergy to the traditional way of doing things. But it's hard to imagine. Yeah, it very much is it Very much is, and you know, the crazy thing also, that we should we probably should touch on is the money aspect. Yeah, we work for money like that's why we work, I think. I mean, I think if you're very, very, extremely fortunate to do exactly what you love, and it makes you a good living and you feel like you're taking care of that's that's really awesome. But most of us work because we need money to survive. And what amazing and beautiful about letting your own business or freelancing or just taking control of your finances is you don't have somebody or a corporation telling you what you can make. It is so limiting, and the flip side of that coin is it's so liberating to have no women's on how much you can make. Truly yeah, truly. I mean to me as And you know, we can talk about this for a whole Another hour is getting pair paid fairly. I mean, if the world is stacked against us, especially as women working in attack in tech ish kind of faction, the glass ceiling is absolutely riel. Um, if the money is not going to come to you, you got to go get it yourself, and it's out there to be gotten. So go get it.

Shireen Jaffer:   53:21
Yeah, And I think that is important because one of the misconceptions is also, you know, I can only make money doing certain things as a freelancer. Um, example. You know, someone might be saying, Well, lives your writer. And of course, you know, writing and content can be freelanced and, you know, as a designer, same thing as a photographer. Same thing. But the careers I am in my career doesn't allow me to be a freelancer. Why? What are your thoughts on that?

Elizabeth Marks:   53:56
I think that I actually again. I wasn't under the impression when I went freelance that you can make a really good living from writing. I actually didn't think that I didn't know that content was such a lucrative half. Um, I also think that everyone has skills toe offer, and it's a matter of figuring out creative ways to leverage those skills into something that people want and will pay for her, want to before and will pay for. And it doesn't necessarily present itself as a content writer or a photographer or a project manager, like there are an infinite number of ways that the skills that someone brings to the table can be applied in creative ways that might not fit into a label just yet. Who knows? Like the business skills or the management skills that people have, those can manifest and will manifest in a multitude of ways across a multitude of industries, and that will always be in demand, like I'm not really sure what kind of skills you're talking about. But it's also, I think, a matter of looking at a situation in a different way that might be quote unquote like written about or might be it a profession already. But it also might look it might be something different or something very niche or something that we have that no one has thought of yet, like the world is big. The needs are big people. Making things and doing things is vast.

Shireen Jaffer:   56:03
Yeah, and I'm a big believer at no idea is a new idea. I think everyone's thought out it somewhere, but yes, you have to open your eyes and find those things that would be willing to look at it from a different lens from a different perspective because so much of what we miss is are doing is our own limiting our mindset, a limiting the questions we asked, being afraid to ask questions. So I think it starts there on. And I can say, you know, just coming as a for lack of better words, like a career coach having Christ over, you know, 50,000 people. Um, I have been able to identify or help people identify, regardless of their industry opportunities, to quit and go freelance, to take ownership over their careers and not be tied to just one company. I totally and I'm not saying that's the only way to build your career. But if you're someone who isn't aligned with how you've chosen toe work, uh, your lifestyles in aligning with that recognize that one. You're not alone. You have options, you know, we just have to figure out options are but two. They're in the recent You know, in last 5 to 10 years, we've had a surge in, you know, travel. No matter, no matter. Workers that travel the world that they're working and they're not all freelance writers, photographers, designers, right. They have a verone. You have different career paths, but they have been able to brand themselves in a way they have been able to communicate their skill set. In a way, they've been able to get into a mindset that has allowed them to see those opportunities. And that's happening every day, all the time, crossed industries. It happens in medicine and haps in finance. It happens in right then, almost everything that I can think of. However, I think the biggest part we have to overcome is that discomfort that, yes, that detachment from stability, which is actually falls because your cycle is something you said that really stood out to me is you know, you found war stability than ever in freelancing because you're not reluctant on anyone organization. And and I think, um, I always encourage people to really think about do they feel stable? And when they really think about it, when they realize wow, you know California, for example, we're in an at will state. You or your employer can choose to start working together whenever on really

Elizabeth Marks:   58:43
reason or no reason. All

Shireen Jaffer:   58:46
right, there really isn't quote on quote stability on that and the fact that you do make money every two weeks for two weeks worth of work. It's not. That's just how it is. There really isn't any stability. Um, So what are you exactly fighting when you refuse to look at alternatives for yourself? Where is that? Your come from back to me was fascinating when I started looking at it for myself and internalizing this and reflecting on this myself for my situation.

Elizabeth Marks:   59:19
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and the night tonight I don't wanna give the false impression that if you're good at your job and you work really hard and you know you do this freelance past that it's all gonna be raining in the dough because it definitely ebbs and flows, that is for sure. Like you're not going to get a paycheck every two weeks. That's not gonna happen. Um,

Shireen Jaffer:   59:51
I mean, they probably a completely different skill set to managing or life. Obviously, when you want to take control of all aspects and not just a couple

Elizabeth Marks:   1:0:03
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's again. Podcast for another times they didn't for coming attractions, but e I mean, there it is a mindset as well. Um, and learning how to manage the ebbs and the flows, learning how to turn off your brain and trust that the work will come when it's down. Um, it's hard or when it pours and taking all the and, you know, having this month and oh, I gotta catch em all before it dries out. Might finding that managing your time and managing the ebbs and flows of your business is a skill sudden itself as well. So it's not. I'm not saying that that's a cakewalk, and it's hard to manage. Quite frank. Yeah,

Shireen Jaffer:   1:0:54
it's almost like the path is difficult. There's no doubt about it. Every part is direct, Bold have has its trials and tribulations, and it comes down to which, and I don't like saying path because that assumes you know, the linearity, which I don't believe in, agree on our every option. Let's say that every option, um, has its own set of things that you have to you have to consider. So it's identifying at any specific point in your life what option makes the most sense. And by the way, that means you could always switch options later on more than one option. I talk to my team about this a lot because, you know, they're all full time workers. And I talk about how employer employee relationships shouldn't exist yet obviously at Adobe have one. Um, but I tell the team so clearly, I said freelancing doesn't mean it's you against your client or it's you for your client. Yeah. You also have your guilt, your people that you work with, that you know, you bring your skills together. Some of the people I've hired at fo they kind of came as a group. Like I met this designer who, you know, was my developers go to think and then right, like they have their own people that they choose to work with on projects over and over again. I love when I get higher like that, because for me is Hey, I'm on a mission. You're coming in and you're going to be part of this mission with me. And you're going to bring your old team or your skill set or your posse, whatever on we're gonna do this together and because of how our society limits and I do want to provide, you know, benefits and all that stuff. We keep it in the employer employee relationship. But in an ideal world, every when I work with has different clients, different projects that they're working on on. And frankly, even my current team, everyone is doing something else. Um, in there, You know, other time I don't three time because I also don't have a belief that you're on the clock, Let's say from 9 to 5 and then it's free time. That's I don't believe in that s O that we've set it up is people can work whenever they want. We have obviously, team, you know, meetings and check ins and hang out. So just we hold people accountable to those because you have to be fair to the team. But outside of that, you independently work whenever you want. Um, and if you are like one of my team members Cynthia, she also has her career coaching practice. And I've, you know, like if I were to look at it from a traditional leads and her and I've talked about this, if I were to look at it from a traditional leaders lens, I would see that and say, Hey, that's a conflict of interest because that Advo we to provide career sports services clients on career coaching. That's a huge conflict of interest. But we talked about it and we said it really is in because I want her to build her brand. I want her to career coach. She enjoys Is she should do it, Um, and if there's anything that broken supply Ford would let's find a way to collaborate but not compete with my own people's passions. That's not what I'm here for. So absolutely empowered and in control on. And now she knows that she could build a career coaching business where, if anything does happen where she cannot rely on Advo for her financial be A she already has something else that can. So I would rather courage that then discourage it and give her the false hope of Hey, nothing ever is gonna change their contract. While I hope that's you know the case, I hope we worked together for a very long time. I cannot guarantee that as a human being,

Elizabeth Marks:   1:4:39
Sure, no. And that's very honest, and I think that that's a huge step forward in the right direction. I love that story. I mean, inside company. My company works the exact same way. You know, we we encourage the people that we work with to work in the capacity that works best for them. It's not in for most the majority of our coworkers. That's not 9 to 5 majority of it there. There come from backgrounds like like my husband and myself. You know that we know how we work individually, and we want people to bring their best Selves to their work. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be their best Selves from 9 to 5. That's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous May. I mean, people have families. People have kids to pick up kids, to drop off family members to take care of. They have their lives. Yeah, can be at your life like Total. It's just no, yeah, you need to. You need to work to live, not live to work. It's just work is great, building things, creating things, creating things with awesome people is frickin amazing and awesome, and how we get through our days as creators and as artists. But in order for people to put their best foot forward and to bring their whole Selves to the table. You have to give then freedom toe work, how they work best. Absolutely. I just feel like opening up the conversation and having conversations like the one that you and I are having. I hope that it opens. It opens up possibilities. That's when I hope

Shireen Jaffer:   1:6:35
I did too. I hope that to, uh and I think that's a great pause to our many organizations that will continue. Liz, they So much for being here on sharing your story. How can our how can people find you? How can people see what you're up to?

Elizabeth Marks:   1:6:55
Um, but email me any My email me at my last name marks and they RKs at inside that company. Ah, you can find us at inside. Dot Company is the website of of our company. Um, yeah, that's probably the best way to reach me, But I'm open and and here to chat about, however, I can offer knowledge, started the knowledge, spread the good word. Um, yeah, and him.

Shireen Jaffer:   1:7:30
And thank you, Lis.

Elizabeth Marks:   1:7:32
Thank you. Sure.